Quick Hits (without the drags)

OK, that was a shameless marijuana reference (but more on that later). These thoughts could encompass a thesis long reply, but as many of you know I am not very good at getting those done ;) So, this is a bullet list style response to some of the comments made in the posts A Discussion Worth Having and A Story About a Story: An Open Letter. I am posting it as an entry so that it will have more visibility.

*Agreed. Our motivation for pursuing holiness should be internal as a result of love for God and not merely to live up to some Christian image.

*In the world, but not of the world. I think this phrase is confusing and perhaps takes on meanings and uses that are not merited by Scripture. The Bible says we are in the world as a statement of an actual fact about our existence as Christians. We are there to shine as lights to unbelievers and to glorify god (Matt 5:14-16). We are there to keep culture from rotting (Matt 5:13). We are there to be ambassadors for Christ (2 Cor. 5:20). This does not mean that we are to really fit in there. In fact scripture says that we will not and should not. The world will hate us (something I find hard being such a people pleaser) and we are aliens and strangers in relationship to it. We are supposed to stick out from it.

*And we aren't supposed to love the world back. Yes, we are to love people in the world and present the gospel to them through our words and lives, but not the world as a system of thought and actions that is against God and against us. That we are not to love.

*We shouldn't judge. This is another maxim that I think gets abused. As Christians, we are absolutely to affirm the judgements of God, and use them to judge/measure the sin our life and the lives of those around us and in society. What we do with this and how we do it is another question altogether (one which is difficult), but when we affirm the judgements of God we will be seen by the world as being judgemental. Because we make these judgements, though, should not mean that we ignore pointing out the freely available grace both for our lives and the lives of others.

*Moreover, we are to be more "judgemental" of those who are in the body of Christ (1 Cor. 5), but always with the end of calling a brother or sister back to fellowship. In verses 9-11 of this chapter, incidentally, we do get an affirmation that we are in the world and that we will associate with sinful unbelievers, who we are not to judge by the same standards as they have not received grace as yet. I think it is important to note that this passage is referring to gross public, unrepentant sin, though, and not to everyday failures, which we know to be sin and acknowledge and confess to God.

*Regarding the grey areas, Pauls instructions re: meat and the weaker brother, etc. etc. I think that this has been covered well and that we cannot enjoin standards upon another Christian brothers that we have merely because of a highly restrictive upbringing. Those of us who have had such an upbringing and who, thus, tend to be more externally motivated and inordinately judgemental need to do some work here. We need to try to determine what truly is Biblically wrong and what is more a product of our specific Christian culture. This is a hard journey and process. It may be that after such reflection that some things will go by the wayside and others will not. The problem arises that we have different definitions of what falls into a grey area. If this is so, then we can lovingly discuss it (not bully one another) and then trust one another that they are free in their conscience before God and then love them as siblings. Admittedly, this can be hard to do at times.

*Greys that I question. Would it matter if the person inside the gorilla suit had been a Christian friend instead of an actual stripper? I think it depends on what is done. Is the performance very lewd and suggestive? Then I suppose it is worse if it is a believer. Can I see how that could be funny? Sure. Can I at the same time have problems with it? I think so. It is very likely that it does not fall within the standards of Ephesians 5. Do I have the right/obligation to school the participants if they can in good conscience enjoy the joke without any problems. As a result of this discussion, no, probably not. Plus, humor and entertainment is the one area where the variance amongst Christians is perhaps the greatest, so perhaps it is best to live and let live. I am sure there things that I enjoy and laugh at which would apall many believers. It is a vexed area. I don't think that this means that we cannot and should not have charitable discussions about these things with one another.

*Marijuana--inherently problematic? I have not done a heck of a lot of research into this, so this opinion is somewhat ill-informed. God made wine to gladden man's heart. If marijuana can be used in a way to do the same thing, I might be able to allow for that (please do not take that phrasing to mean I am being the moral police here controlling your actions, it is rhetorical device). Scripture also says that it is a sin to get drunk (or that the very least that we are not to get drunk). I think the principle behind it is because it leads to a lack of self-control and because the reason people often get drunk is to drown sorrows, worries, etc. that they cannot trust God with. Granting that premise, then getting stoned would be as problematic as getting drunk. I should add that compulsive shopping, eating, television viewing, reading (whatever) to achieve the same end is every bit as problematic. Are these struggles that afflict every Christian in some way? Yes. We have different poisons, but that does not mean they should not be acknowledged as such. Moreover, there are more overtly sinful poisons that accomplish the same numbing, but ultimately deadening ends: masturbating to pornography, sleeping around, or being hooked on unwarranted, unhealthy physical intimacy. Yeah, that is why communion every week is such a wonderful thing.

*Strip clubs--I don't think they are places believers really can be without problems, even if they are not effected by nakedness or are there to be salt and light. And, Aura, I think you said as much in your post. Here is my reasoning. I think you can be a believer and in good conscience and be a bartender. I do not think you can be believer and in good conscience be either a stripper or a prostitute or porn star. Your work clearly is causing people to sin and that type of intimacy clearly is proscribed to the marriage bed. So, I think, even being there is in a way partnering with an intrinsically worldly and ungodly business that wrecks souls. Please, please note that I am not saying that stripper or a prostitute or a porn star cannot be a Christian, but I think that if they are a believer they should change professions, just as greedy, price gouging person should give up greed (think pay day loans), or a thief should give up stealing. Ok, so I don't know too much about pay day loan place owners, but the premise of those businesses seems so ungodly. And should a Christian work at a casino? Ooh, that will have to wait until another post.

I am actually surprised by how much I agree with what you are saying. You and I have consistently had polarizingly different viewpoints on the propriety of Christian behavior, so I think it's interesting how much closer we've both come toward each others' views.

When I used the phrase, "in the world and not of the world", I wasn't advocating a love of the world above Christ, etc. Though I do believe it to mean more than just a geographical location, I think what some of the verses you posted say is exactly what my point was, which is that we have to be ambassadors to the world for God. The president doesn't appoint an ambassador to the UN who says things like, "The UN could lose the top 10 floors and it wouldn't make a difference." At least a sane president with an understanding of the ramifications such a thing would do to the country wouldn't. (OK, sorry, cheap shot, I get to have my shameless moments too.) But seriously, an ambassador can't be ignorant to the language, ways and customs of a country and be a good ambassador. I did not mean to suggest that Christians should hang out only with non-Christians. Quite the contrary, I believe that Christains need each other, and are, in fact, commanded to commune with one another. What I was speaking of is a knowledge and understanding of the world. I believe that when Christians spend ALL of their time among other Christians, they lose all perspective of who they are and what the world is about around them. In one of the verses you quote above, it says (I paraphrase), I do not command you to shun those of the world, for in doing so you would have to leave the world. Metaphorically speaking, that is exactly what I believe a lot of Christians do. They shun the world an remove themselves completely from it. I don't think this verse is meant to be taken as literally as you are taking it. Or maybe it is meant to be taken both. I have seen people remove themselves completely from the world, and have absolutely no contact with people who are not of the same faith, and in so doing, they lose any possibility of witnessing to the world. THey are hiding their light from the world, because they are refusing to show it to the world.

As far as judging others, you'll notice that all references to calling people out in their sin have to do with sexual sin. I AM NOT SAYING that we should only judge people with sexual sin, but I think it's important that the examples used in the bible are EXTREMELY NON GREY AREA examples. They are things that are unquestionable sins for everyone and sins that are very tactile - they don't include thoughts, judgement calls, impulse, or occasional use things like lies, entertainment, etc. They are lifestyle altering sins. Things that change a person's whole way of life. In other words, they're obvious black and white continual sins. We all sins. There is a difference between someone who lies often and a pathalogical liar. A pathological can't help lying. They lie when there is nothing wrong with the truth. They lie over stupid things. It is a way of life. OK, I think I've gotten off track here, but I hope it makes sense.

At any rate, I just love the verse you use that explicitly forbids judging the world. He says, "Who am I to judge the world?" Can we put this on billboards and t-shirts and carve it into the pulpit please? Of course we have an obligation to hold each other up to a higher standard, but can't you see how the greater percentage of American Christians are laughing in the face of that verse? All of this talk about gay marriage is particularly WRONG. Who are we to judge the world? Who are we to tell someone who does not share our beliefs in God that they should not be happy with the person they love? Who are we to tell them that they don't deserve the same worldly rights as we enjoy? If anything, we should wish them all of the happiness they can achieve in this lifetime because if they are not believers, they unfortunately won't have much happiness in the next. (Though I'm still hoping for a loophole there). (Oh, c'mon, you knew I'd get around to politics sooner or later)

I just want to clear something up about marijuana. (This is a VERY difficult thing for me to write on your blog, so please don't think too terribly of me) Though I acknowledge fully that it is an (unfortunately) illegal substance (I have conspiracy theories about why, but I digress) since you admit that you haven't researched it much, I will tell you that smoking marijana is not like getting drunk. It is less harmful, both physically and attitudinally. Getting drunk implies a loss of inhibitions and a change in personality. Pot just makes you feel good. It literally takes the edge off. When I have smoked marijuana, I have not had a significant change in personality, I have simply been a happier version of myself. Anything to excess is bad, be it alcohol, marijuana, books, television, etc (as you mentioned above). And I am guilty of an excess of all of these from time to time. But I was just discussing this with some friends last night, so it's a topic fresh and ripe for exploration. I have driven in a car when I have had too much to drink (once) because I lacked the judgement to tell myself that I was too out of it to drive. By the grace of God I made it home safely, and it is something I will never do again. I have driven a car SEVERAL times under extreme exhaustion, when I was an immense danger to the road and to myself, and by the grace of God I've only ever been in one relatively minor car accident as a result (in high school). My judgement was definitely affected in those situations. I have never even been tempted to drive a car under the influence of marijuana, and I never will. As far as not trusting god to make me feel better, but turning to a substance instead, well, historically, people have used all sorts of drugs to bring themselves closer to god. OK, maybe that sounds cheesy. The best way I can explain it is this. I went to a psyciatrist several years ago because I was dealing with pretty severe depression. He prescribed drugs and sent me on my way. I explained to him that I have no problem with the drugs. In fact that I wanted the drugs, because I wanted to get away from the symptoms of my depression, but then once those symptoms subsided, I wanted to get to the root of the problem, and then come off the drugs. He looked at me like I was a loon and I never went back. I stopped the drugs after I felt like I had dealt with my problems. I guess I look at pot in that way. A way to get past the symptoms for awhile, and face the root of the problem. Adjust my perspective. Does that make sense?

Anyway, thus ends my treatise on sin and the world.

Some of the passages I cited talk about the gravity of other presistent and public sins, like greed, as well, but admittedly sexual sins seem to stand out inordinately when it comes to public sin.

We are not to judge (or rather hold accountable is a better choice here) individuals outside of the church with regard to correcting individual behaviors only because they are not yet believers. It would be putting the cart before the horse. Grace and forgiveness should be the motivation for change and should be at the core of any correction within the church. However, God has already judged the world (and we were included in that equation at one point). As believers we are absolutely to affirm those judgements and appropriately declare them. That, indeed, is a necessary prerequisite to the Gospel, it is what makes it such good news.

The Lutherans have a pretty cool fomulation of encapsuling the gospel putting it in terms of Law and Gospel. From what I understand, they believe that we need each of these in our lives to varying degrees before and after we become believers. Perhaps some believers need little proclamation of the Law of God because they know what they are and they know they need grace. They need the Gospel. Others may need to hear the Law. They would say that this is true for believers as well. Sometimes we need to preach the law to ourselves, sometimes we need the gospel, which always is the goal even if I have needed to preach the law to myself. I don't know if I wholeheartedly subscribe to this construction, but I find it helpful.

At any rate, we need to faithfully affirm God's judgements about all sorts of things, not to change unbelievers' behavior but to point them to the Gospel.

The area of how much we seek to bring the world in line with God's good laws for healthy human function (believer or non) is another matter.

But I really have to get to work.

I meant to say "perhaps some unbelievers need little preaching of the law" not believers.

I'm very glad you corrected yourself, because that is the point of my argument. The world doesn't need us telling THEM what to do. We can affirm our beliefs in practice and even tell the world what our beliefs are for ourselves. Clearly we should. But we should not JUDGE (that's the word the bible uses, and that's the one we should use) the world nor try to impose on the world the laws that God holds US accountable for. As you said, he has already judged the world. He also says that judgement is for him and him alone. We have no part of that. The most we should do is acknowledge his judgement, not try to impose it on others. And I'll tell you why I'm so certain that's what he means when he says that. Because I have come to understand that every commandment that God gives us is practical. Every last one of them is for our own good, and not just some mean test of our loyalty. Attempting to impose our judgement on the world is counter intuitive. We are shooting ourselves in the foot. The stronger Christians push to conform the world around us to our ideal state, the more that world rebels against us, the less validity we hold, the less fruitful our efforts for real reform are. I am pro-life, and I have heard Christian-haters like Bill Maher say, "The abortion thing, I can understand, but the gay thing. . ." and he's absolutely right. By insisting on imposing your judgement of homosexuality on the country you are losing all ground gained in the fight against abortion, a fight I can get behind wholeheartedly because I believe it to be murder, and all acts of forced will on others are in a different category - they are an evil that the world can agree with Christianity on. But sins of choice, sins where the only people being hurt are the people engaging in the sins, are none of my business unless the person either asks me to intercede, or is a brother or sister in Christ in whom I have a responsibility to intercede. But that's a digression. The heart of my argument is this: God clearly didn't intend for us to place our expectations of each other on others who don't share our beliefs because it's not a practical thing to do. We constantly hear the phrase, "love the sinner, not the sin" but we seldom grasp it's meaning. It is fine to believe that homosexuality is a sin. It is not okay to try to affect the laws of a predominantly un-christian population so as to impose those beliefs on non-believers. It's not way to win converts for God. Thank God we are only his vessels and not his messengers, or I fear we would be doing him a great inservice. As ambassadors, we truly suck.

Wow. I have to say in all my years of knowing Rachel I have never felt like she was in my head, man. Usually we argue about everything. This time I scrolled down with all these ideas in my head and found that she'd beat me to it. Even she must admit, this is a truly unprecidented day. But still, since I can't keep my thoughts to myself (and perhaps this is the perfect venue for keeping our thoughts well-oiled for all those instances when we find ourselves keeping our mouths shut?):

*ITWBNOTW--Rachel hit it on the head, and managed to throw out a blow at the president as well. Kudos. To this I must add that as a girl of healthy self-esteem raised in the world and not just that but raised to LOVE the world, this is a particularly touchy subject for me. I do agree that we are called to be separate, not to fit it, called to hate the sin of the world around us. I have always been a girl who loves rebellion, loves counter-culture, and perhaps that is a reason I have been drawn to Christianity (though non-believers would probably scoff at the idea of being a fundamentalist Christian counter-culturalist). But I have found as I became ensconced in fundamentalist Christian community that they too much REVEL in hating the world, not just doing it because it is necessary to love God's Word over what the world says. I think my admitted (as I have discovered through the vitriol I threw out at your essay) bitterness has been with those who were raised in a culture of separation, a culture that teaches a disdain for the world's ways (if you will) who then find it so easy to tell me that my hatred is not strong enough, that I need to separate myself more. I think it is very easy to proclaim that from a place where nothing has ever been lost, because the prevailing attitude of this community was to always be wary of surroundings and never comfortable.

I have heard this over and over, that I am 'too much' a part of the world, if that would be the correct phrasing. And it's fair to think (on my part as well as yours, or anyone else's) that if everyone is telling me that, it may very well be true. I can be a blind stubborn mule, that's true, but it is possible for me to reflect on myself eventually. Perhaps it is so hard for me to believe (and at this point I must confess that I really don't believe it) because I find it so unfair, and so easy a proclamation for most of the Christians I know, and I also see their own removal from those around them (as Rachel mentioned in her post). What I really need is the sound counsel of some counter culturalists. Any of you out there?

Perhaps I can use this as an example. You said in a later paragraph on the gray areas that a friend in the gorilla suit would be worse if the dance were very lewd and suggestive. I agree with you there, but in this you suggest (and do I assume too much here?) that if the girations of the friend were the same ones of the stripper in the gorilla suit, that you would have a problem. If my assumption is true, of course there is no problem with that. It is a personal conviction and those are healthy and supplied by God.

But I must confess (and my memory is foggy now--what?--seven years later??) I don't remember one thing that I thought was at all lewd. My entire recollection is that there was some distinct hip movement (and as I have hinted at earlier this was very indistinct in a giant gorilla outfit, which was what made it funny to me) and I recall that he made Suzie take his shorts off, but this was by laying on the floor and waggling his gorilla feet in her face, not very suggestive (to me). Because of our difference in personality, in perception, but most importantly because of our difference in the way information was presented to us about the condition of the world as we were growing up, you can see then that our perceptions of this event were very different.

And here is what I was trying to say was the issue in my much earlier post on your story: that there is nothing wrong with leaving the party, with being personally bothered by a gorilla striptease. I do, however (I will try not to bully), find fault with assuming that your perception of these events gives you the responsibility to tell those of us who did not share your perception that we in fact SHOULD share your perception.

But it is my supposition that this is not your problem exclusively, I think this reaction is a result of being around lots of people who think the same way. Hanging around lots of people who would agree that a gorilla striptease is too excessive and who agree that yes, the world's morality is a vile thing that we love to hate (and if that sounds sarcastic, I don't mean it to be. I genuinely think this is the goal) will eventually lead any person to forget that there are those who DON'T love to hate the world. It is a dangerous form of shelter, I think, and not one that is individual to you, but is pandemic in Christian communities.

I admit that there are ways of life that I miss about my time before I was a Christian, and about some of the time when I was an unschooled Christian. I miss having no struggle in my heart when I am around people who are doing things I wouldn't do. I miss feeling like I had a choice to do things that I would not now do. Nowadays I do feel torn, and I feel that internal struggle. I don't regret it, but I definitely have feelings of nostalgia.

What it has always felt like from my perspective is that people who have never felt torn and never loved the excesses of the world in the first place sit over me and tell me that I still love the world too much and that I need to step back more. This is unfair of me, to feel essentially judged, and until this posting started I don't think I realized how this has become a bitterness in me, but there is some truth in it. I do continue to struggle, but I think I will always struggle, and with struggle comes victory as well as defeat. There will always be times when I slip and give in to the flesh in very fleshy ways, but there will be a lot of times (and I know this because I feel these victories DAILY) when I am blessed with enough kisses from the Father to make it through a day (more likely five minutes). I guess what I am saying is, have patience with me, and try to understand (Christian community at large) how my struggles are different from yours in profound ways.

Also extend this patience to strippers and porn stars, etc. While I agree that they cannot continue indefinitely in this profession, when we all become Christians we each have all sorts of varying things that we also cannot continue in, and none of these things is worse than another. This is one reason why we are called born again, so that we can start fresh. But God works in every heart that he has called, and in some He takes days and in some He takes years. Just because he prods some gently doesn't mean there isn't some serious change going on.

Ok, must end this rambling post now, before coherent thoughts are lost forever yet post goes on into eternity...

Fair enough, Aura. I don't have much to disagree with in this post. Fundamentalist Christians are too often too isolationist for their own or the worlds good.

Also, this, indeed, was all so long ago. I might not find the actual events that occurred so very offensive any more. Moreover, my story now would likely be different and I would not foist my story on you.

Also, please realize that those who are raised in fundamentalistic settings don't all remain static in a rigid, world hating stance. Even those who do remain static and fairly isolated all aren't haters by any means. And these non-haters, likely possess varying degrees of ability or inability to interact with people who are markedly different from them in thinking. People who do change and modify or reject their fundamentalism also have struggles, as you do, in their heads and hearts. An excellent look at these people, my people (me being a recovering/reforming fundamentalist), is Growing Up Fundamentalist by Stefan Ulstein. If you want to give it a read, I will be happy to loan it to you.

And, finally, I am not the same person I was. I have, in many ways, been quietly sitting on the sidelines of life and relationships for the longest while, so I am not entirely sure what I will be like when I take this baby out of neutral, but I think my interactions will be different. I sincerely hope so. And, if I will tend to get out of alignment and stray toward the center line towards ugly collisions, as I am sure I will do at times, I will correct myself with God's help.

And, so. I hope we can finally put the "Full Banana" to rest. Though I will be happy to continue dialoguing on such issues in this space. If more needs to be said/discussed about this specific issue, though, that is cool too. The door is open.

I have one more question in regards to something that was posted in this discussion. It's really not much related to most of the post, but I'm curious for opinions and scripture to back those opinions up, please.

Neil,

When you posted the link to the following:
15Do not love the world or anything in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him. 16For everything in the world—the cravings of sinful man, the lust of his eyes and the boasting of what he has and does—comes not from the Father but from the world

you got me thinking. Is it loving the world if you don't want to leave it?

As Christians, we are promised a better afterlife than our current life. But, if we're attached to this life, is that a sin? I'm comforted to know that when I die, I'm going to a better place. But I still don't want to die. Is it a sin to pray that someone lives? Or is that just selfish? Is it a sin to pray that I live through a potentially fatal experience?

Rachel, I don' really have a complete answer on this because I have done enough thinking/reading on heaven in relation to the New Earth. In fact, only recently have I begun to think of the New Earth as being our final location instead of heaven.

I think the verse I quoted is often quoted to lead to too much otherworldliness and there is a strain Christianity which will tend to entirely reject the goodness of creation (the world if you will) in seeking to avoid loving "the world." "The world" is a system of sin and evil that we are to hate and oppose. That sin has marred creation too, but creation is good in and of itself as is much of human culture, and I don't think it is wrong to love these things, to long for them in their purest essence. Revelation indicates that the glory of the kings of the earth will be present in heaven. I suppose it will be in the New Earth too (once again, I have not worked that out yet).

This is also related to my post on Eden. However we formlate the relation of death to sin or the origins of death, in a very fundamental way, Christianity views death as a bad thing because it separates us from where we were created to be.

So, I think fear of death/desire to live and enjoy the goodness of creation is not ungodly in and of itself.

I realize there was not much direct Scriptural support there, but I think generally the thoughts are Scriptural.